Witness Interview: Sara Van Outen, a long-time Donahue family employee

Friday, December 20, 2002 - 7:32 p.m.

The witness, identified as former nanny to James Donahue and current housekeeper for Dora Donahue, was interviewed at her home in Oxford. The interview was conducted by Detectives Armstrong and Murphy, and was recorded on a portable audio tape recorder with the witness's knowledge and consent.

TA = Detective T. Armstrong

SM = Detective S. Murphy

SVO = Sara Van Outen

TA: Good evening. Would you please state your name and address for the record?

SVO: My name is Sara Van Outen and I live here at 2323 University Avenue.

SM: Thank you very much for letting us in to see you this evening, Mrs. Van Outen.

SVO: I didn't feel like I had a lot of choice.

SM: Well, I suppose that is true, but it's appreciated anyway.

SVO: It would have been nice to get some warning of your visit. Do you always turn up unannounced?

SM: We do if we feel the situation warrants it. You know why we're here, don't you?

SVO: It must be to talk about the man who came to the Donahue home before he died. Mr. Hitzig, isn't it?

TA: Yes, it is. We want to hear your version of what happened on that Sunday evening.

SVO: Do you really and honestly suspect that either James or Dora had anything to do with this man's death?

SM: I think it is fair to say they are forming part of our ongoing inquiries yes. How do you feel about that?

SVO: How do I feel? How would you expect me to feel? I've worked for the Donahues since James was a very small boy. I've wiped his nose and his butt, Detective Murphy, and now I'm helping his mother in the last years of her life. I can not believe they are mixed up in anything like this at all.

TA: What was James Donahue like as a boy?

SVO: He was a normal boy. The worst you could ever accuse him of is being a little spoiled at times.

TA: You think he was spoiled as a child?

SVO: Don't you go getting all excited, Detective. I ain't saying he was a bad kid, just that he could be a bit wilful and selfish at times. He was always destined for great things, so I guess it's natural he's grown up the way he has. He's very charming and very charismatic.

SM: When you say he was always destined for great things, what does that mean?

SVO: James had only just been born when Mrs. Donahue told me that one day he would be President of this country. I've never heard anyone sound as confident about anything in my whole damn life. I said I was sure he was going to grow up and be big and important. And she said to me, "James isn't just going to be big and important Sara. He is going to lead this nation. I know it in my heart because the future has already been written for him." That's Dora for you, unshakable and with an absolute faith.

TA: And what about you? How do you feel about James?

SVO: I love him like a son. Whether he'll be President or not one day, I don't know. Dora still absolutely believes it though.

TA: Mrs. Van Outen, let's talk about the Sunday, the day before Wenzel Hitzig was murdered when he came to see Mrs. Donahue at her home. How much do you know or remember about that?

SVO: Yes that's true. He did come to see her. I let him in. He told me he wanted to see Mrs. Donahue and that the museum staff had sent him. He had a letter in his hand for her. I thought it was maybe official business or museum business at the least.

SM: So then what happened?

SVO: I went in to where Dora was sitting and told her a man from the university was there to see her, and she said to show him in. So that's what I did. Mr. Hitzig told Dora that he wasn't actually from the university, but that he made computer games and was here to ask her questions about Greece.

SM: Were you present during any conversation Mrs. Donahue had with Mr. Hitzig that day?

SVO: No, I wasn't there while Dora and James spoke to him.

TA: So James Donahue also spoke to Mr. Hitzig?

SVO: Yes, I think he did. I brought some coffee in for them and James was there.

TA: Mrs. Van Outen, that's not what James told us. He said he left his mother alone to talk to Mr. Hitzig.

SVO: Did he? Well I suppose he wasn't there for all their conversation. I mean I could be mistaken. He was probably only there for a moment or he'd just popped in or something. James wouldn't lie to you.

TA: No one is accusing Mr. Donahue of lying. It's just it's interesting to us how two people who witnessed an event can have different accounts of what happened. It's to be expected though, isn't it? We all see things differently. It must be like when you are looking after children and one of them comes running to say that another has done something wrong, and then you ask the other children and get a different story from each one?

SVO: Yes, children can be like that can't they. Such dear sweet things. I miss having children around the house. My two are all grown up now.

SM: You don't have any grandchildren yet?

SVO: No, I don't. Oh, I see Dora's grandkids once in a while of course, but it's not the same as having a day-to-day contact with a small bundle of hopes and dreams and excitement.

TA: It must be hard work looking after Dora Donahue as well, isn't it?

SVO: Oh, it's not as bad as you might think. I wasn't complaining about looking after Dora. At my age, I'd probably soon be tired of running around after little 'uns, but when you've worked with children or had children in your life for such a long time, it's not the same you know?

TA: How much do you know about Mrs. Donahue's life in Europe?

SVO: Very little. I know she was born in Germany and was married before to a Joseph Gasmann, and that he died in the war, but Dora says she feels that was like something that happened to a different person. She once told me when she arrived in America that she put all of her previous existence behind her.

TA: Did you know she had a daughter in Europe?

SVO: What?

TA: We think she had a daughter before she migrated to the US. Is this news to you?

SVO: It's a shock, yes. I'm sure she told me that Joseph and her didn't have children.

TA: It was before Joseph. It seems she had an illegitimate daughter in 1937 and she was put up for adoption. No one has turned up at the Donahue household claiming to be a relative then?

SVO: Absolutely not. Well, not that I am aware of anyway.

TA: Okay, let's go back over the day Wenzel Hitzig came to see Dora. You said James and Dora both talked with him together. How long did their conversation last?

SVO: I couldn't say, Detective. It was probably only a few minutes, but I had other things to do so I don't know for certain.

TA: Well, in the time that you were around for whatever conversation they had, did you overhear anything?

SVO: I really don't think I can help you, Detective.

TA: You're sure you don't remember overhearing anything?

SVO: Like I said before, I heard Mr. Hitzig introduce himself and he mentioned computer games and Greece but, apart from that, I don't recall anything else.

SM: Who owns the car parked in your driveway?

SVO: I do. Why?

SM: I wondered if maybe it went with your working for the Donahues?

SVO: Well, you are right in a way. I do receive a sum on top of my salary for a car. It means I can be on hand to help out Dora and run any errands that need doing, but I own the car.

SM: Does anyone else ever drive it?

SVO: My husband, occasionally. He usually just drives his truck though.

SM: And as far as you are aware, no one else ever borrows it?

SVO: Why is my car suddenly so interesting to you?

TA: It matches the description of a dark sedan seen leaving the area of Wenzel Hitzig's homicide at high speed at around the time he was killed. Will your husband be back soon? We'll need to speak to him as well, if it is only you two who drive the car.

SVO: Now wait just a minute. There must be hundreds of cars that match the description of a dark sedan in Oxford alone.

SM: I'm sorry, Mrs. Van Outen. We should have said that there is a partial match with the license plate too. And that it was a Ford. So was it you driving the car that day?

SVO: I don't remember being in that area at all. What time are we talking about?

TA: It would have been around midday on November 4th.

SVO: I would have been working that day. I don't remember having to go out at all. It couldn't have been me. It must just be a car that looks like mine.

SM: I'm afraid we aren't going to be able to let this drop that easily, Mrs. Van Outen. Please, think back. Did you have to leave the Donahue house at any point that day, or did anyone else borrow the car?

SVO: I know I didn't leave the house. I arrived at about nine in the morning and James was there. He sometimes comes to see his mother for breakfast if he has a busy day or week planned, and he... he...

SM: He what? What did he do?

SVO: He asked if he could use my car to pick up a spare part he needed for his Buick. I'm sorry I hadn't thought of it until I remembered him being there at breakfast.

SM: Okay, so James borrowed the car?

SVO: Yes, but he wasn't gone long. It was less than an hour. He called me to say he had put my car in the garage and that he had the spare part for his car and was on his way to his office.

TA: What time was this?

SVO: I think it would have been around ten in the morning.

SM: Did you check to see if your car was in the garage at that point?

SVO: No. Why would I not believe James? I had no reason to go and check. I'm sure it was back there when he said it was.

TA: Well, I'm afraid that we don't share your faith. What did he do with your car keys? Did he have his own set?

SVO: No, of course not. He said he put them on the table in the entrance hall and I remember going to pick them up. That wasn't long after he called because by that time Dora was downstairs in the sitting room and I was tidying her room and changing her bedding. So he must have been telling the truth. I'm sure I picked up my keys within ten minutes of him calling and that must mean my car was back.

SM: Unless he had a spare set of keys that you are not aware of?

SVO: James is not involved in this. It's just an unfortunate coincidence, this car business. It has to be.

SM: But you can't be sure, can you?

SVO: I know him. He wouldn't kill someone.

SM: Do any of us really know someone that well, Mrs. Van Outen? You know Dora but didn't know she had an adopted daughter.

SVO: That's different, isn't it? She never talked about it.

TA: So James has talked to you about this, has he?

SVO: Well a little, yes.

SM: What did he say?

SVO: He asked me what I remembered about the day Mr. Hitzig came to the house.

SM: And what was your reply?

SVO: I told him that I didn't remember much, just letting him in and then that he and Dora talked to him. He didn't try and tell me what to say, if that's what you are implying.

TA: No, of course not. What did he say then?

SVO: He said that he could do without being involved in this business.

TA: Anything else?

SVO: No I don't think so.

TA: You were also there when Dora asked Mr. Hitzig to leave?

SVO: Well, yes I was. I was on my way back through to see them to ask if they would like more coffee or something, and James and I both heard Dora shout for us. So we immediately went to her and she asked us to show Mr. Hitzig out. James did and I stayed with Dora because she looked upset.

SM: Did Mr. Hitzig say anything at that point?

SVO: He apologized for upsetting her. As he was leaving, he said something about coming back to talk more. Dora said she didn't want that. He said something else, but it didn't mean anything to me. Didn't make any sense at all.

SM: It might mean something to us. Do you remember exactly what he said?

SVO: Something about his car, I think. About his tires? I don't know. Sorry.

SM: And then James Donahue escorted him to the door?

SVO: Yes, that's right.

SM: How long was James Donahue gone?

SVO: Only a few moments.

SM: Did Dora Donahue say anything at that point?

SVO: No, she was just very quiet. I waited for James to come back and then said I would make Dora a drink. He sat down next to his mother and held her hand. He asked her if she was okay. And she said that the visitor had upset her.

TA: Anything else?

SVO: James said, "This is not a game. What a loser!" He was talking about Mr. Hitzig, I think.

SM: And that is an exact quote?

SVO: Yes, it is. I only remember it because I thought it was a strange thing to say. You see, don't you, that none of this shows James or Dora were involved in this man's death, don't you? He came and upset Dora, but he left, and we carried on. I don't see how anyone can be suspicious of that.

SM: We're just following lines of inquiry, Mrs. Van Outen.

SVO: I'm tired. Do you mind if we stop now?

TA: I think we have found out what we needed to know. We'll be in touch should anything else come up.

End interview 8:47 p.m.