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Interview: Will Mathis |
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Will Mathis, defendant and witness for the Defense being first duly sworn, testified as follows in the Circuit Court of Lafayette County during a special December term in 1901. Q: Tell the jury just what happened on the occasion of November the 16th? A: On Nov. 16th Mr. Hugh Montgomery and Mr. John A. Montgomery come to my house about sundown, and arrested me — Mr. Hugh read the indictment to me, I had just killed a hog and scalded it and was scraping the hair off, I asked him to stay until I got my hog cleaned — I told him I could go now — but I would like for him to let me get my hog fixed up — Mr. John A. Montgomery said "Of course we will stay" and I asked Bill Jackson would he go on my bond and also go and get Toy Moore. Mr. John A. said it is just with Hugh about staying all night — Hugh said I ought to go back to town — Mr. John says I will stay here and you can go back — he says I ain’t a skeered to stay with Will — Hugh decided to stay too — They asked me the negroes name and I told them Threlkill — Hugh asked if he was a brother of Bob and Frank Threlkill – the negro decided they were after him so he slipped off and got the gun — after supper I stepped out and the negro said "shoo" I thought he said shoot — so I thought there was two of them there aiming to kill me — so I shot and then turned my dog loose and he run the negro up a sapling — he pitched the gun over behind some briars — he told me he had been all around the house trying to get a chance to kill the men but couldn’t do it because he might shoot one of us — he come down and I made him cut up the hog and cut some wood — he told me what his aim was and I says "You damn black rascal you aint going to do no such thing, I says John A. Montgomery is going to be a good witness in the counterfeiting business they got against me and you shall not hurt them. He said Mr. Owens told me to do it — and he said Miss Cordie oughtn’t Will let me do it, and she says "No he oughtn’t Will knows his business better than Pa." So Bill Jackson got ready to leave and he went out and got his mule and the negro got his gun and started too. So I went in the house and asked the men if they wanted to lay down and they said they believed they did, so I took the lamp and went in the side room with them and they pulled off their clothes, Hugh had the pistol he took from me, and I seen it; I asked him about it a time or two, I asked him that night, Hugh said Mack Adams took it to Washington, so when he pulled off his coat and pulled off his pistol and put it under his pillow, I saw it; Mr. John A. Montgomery had done got in the bed, I says to Hugh let me see that pistol, and he says no that is mine, I says that is my property and Hugh says no it is not I called Hugh a damn lie, he reached back for his pistol, and says I will take you to town right now, he said get up John A. and about that time the negro heard us and run in with the gun and shot the men, after he shot them I told my wife to get up, I didn’t want her to witness no such thing, the negro asked me to help bury them and I told him I aint going to do no such thing, I haven’t got anything to do with it, I am going to leave here, I went and got my pistol and by then, the men had been drug off on the floor. All three of the pistols were lying on the bed, I picked them up and put them in my pocket and I picked up a book with $3.00 in it lying on the bed and put it in my pocket and left them lying there — I never had a thing to do with it — all I did was taken the pistols after the men were done killed and drug out on the floor. I went on to George Jackson’s and he went with me to Curdie Halls — who is a cousin of Hugh Montgomery — I says to George he will know Hughs horse so I will take it up there and turn it loose so Curdie will get it — I told Jackson about the negro killing them and about his fixing to burn them — I never toted out anything but a feather mattress — the negro started to throw some fire on it and Mr. Owens told him to stop. Q: You heard the statement of George Jackson made while ago? A: Yes sir. Q: Did you make that statement to him? A: No sir not all of it. Q: What part of it wasn’t true? A: The part about me giving them the high ball — I told him the men were killed at my house and I expect burnt up. Q: Is Shell Vines related to Bill Jackson? A: Yes sir his brother married his daughter. Q: Is there anything you have left out now? A: I didn’t tell about us having late supper. Q: Why was supper late? A: We killed the hog and my wife was late about getting the entrails and lard fixed up. Q: You and John A. Montgomery were friendly were you not? A: Yes sir — he was my witness and was going to swear against Bill Prewitt with witness against me in the other case. Q: You had no motive for killing John A. Montgomery? A: No sir he was a good friend of mine — I would as soon think of hurting one of these men (jurors) as quick as I would have him. Of course I made a statement to the Coroners jury different to what it was — I told them a whole lot on myself that wasn’t so — I done it for fear of violence if I denied anything — they asked me if I had anything to tell my folks and I said "Why I will get to see my wife myself won’t I?" and they said it was doubtful" so I began to talk and told everything I could on myself just as bad as I could make it and tried to make myself just as guilty as I could just like I wasn’t going to try to make myself not guilty so they would think I didn’t want to clear myself or make any defense — I says all I want is to have a chance to talk to the young boys of the country that I may give them warning. Q: So you made that statement because you were in fear of your life? A: Yes sir I was afraid then and have been all the time to let them know I was going to make any fight for myself at all — afraid if I did they would hang me.
Q: When you were surrounded by the officers of the law and when you were in the County Courthouse — you told the tale that you participated in the killing — was that why you were scared? A: Yes sir I was scared all the time. Q: You say after the officers were killed you and your wife and the negro went down to Whit Owens? A: Yes sir we went down there and the negro followed on behind us. Q: Did Mr. Owens come back with you and into the place? A: Yes sir. Q: Your wife didn’t come back? A: No sir. Q: You brought a spade or shovel back from Owens didn’t you? A: No sir — Lester brought it — Mr. Owens sent him for it. Q: Who suggested to get the spade? A: Orlandus Lester asked me if there was any shovel up to my house and I told him no and he asked Mr. Owens hadn’t he better get one and he said Yes and he went and got it. Q: Whit Owens went back up to your house and went into the house with you? A: We went back up to the house and when we got to the yard they asked me where I was going and I told them I was going to get a horse and leave here. Q: Whose horse? A: I went to get my mule and he was gone and I got Hugh Montgomerys horse. Q: Then what? A: Mr. Owens asked me wasn’t I going to help and I said No it ain't my job I says Ed Welch seen them men here and Bill Jackson too and there will be men here before day hunting them and I ain’t going to do it. Q: You were certain that Lester and Whit Owens had pulled the men off the bed? A: The two men were drug off the bed when I went in there and get my pistol and I picked up the other pistols and the pocket book and put them in my pocket. Q: How much money was in the pocket book? A: Three or four dollars. Q: You got that money out of John Montgomerys pocket didn’t you? A: No sir — I stated before the Coroners jury I did but I never. Q: Did you get Hugh Montgomerys knife? A: No sir — I borrowed his knife that night before supper. Q: Did you get his cartridges out of his pocket? A: No sir I got them out of the belt — his belt was lying in the bed. Q: How about Hugh Montgomerys watch? A: I don’t know a thing about that — it was took off after I left — I guess Mr. Owens or the negro one got it — I never took anything but the 3 pistols and the money and the cartridges. Q: And the horse and bridle and saddle? A: Yes sir. Q: And the rubber coat on the saddle? A: I don’t remember about that. — if the coat was on the saddle I got it. Q: Didn’t you take that watch off and give it to Whit Owens? A: No sir. Q: And didn’t you tell him to take it and take care of it and if you never got back and your baby got enough to know something about a watch give it to him? A: No sir — I told them that before the Coroners jury but it isn’t true. Q: Why did you tell that then? A: They asked me about the watch and I thought the best thing I could do was to tell something. Q: And you just told the first thing you thought of? A: No sir I tried to think of what was the best thing to tell to save my life Q: And you thought the best thing was to tell them you took the dead mans watch off his dead body and told your father in law to give it to your child when he got old enough to use it? A: I didn’t think that — I think you are mistaken about that.
A: What statements I made in jail were all false — men you come there every day and even preachers come there and told me they didn’t know what night I would be took out of jail and hung and said if it wasn’t for the prayers of the good people I would have already been took out and mobbed so I made like I was guilty as I could all the time. Q: You also told that the negro did the shooting and that you were there with pistol in hand so if he failed you were to finish the job? A: Yes sir I told that. Q: That wasn’t true either? A: No sir Q: When you came into this Court room and set down in the presence of the Coroners jury; didn’t I state to you then "That I understood your desire to make a statement as to how this thing occurred" ------- A: I asked them to take me on to jail — I didn’t want to come to the Court house — I wanted them to slip me in the jail. But after they got me here I told them I didn’t want to make no fight. Q: Didn’t I tell you "I understand you want to make a voluntary statement about this matter" and didn’t you say then "I want to tell all about it"? A: I don’t remember that I said that — I said I wanted the people to give me a chance that I wanted to have a fair trial and give the young people a talk that it might be a lesson to them. Q: Didn’t I state to you then and there that you had a right to make a statement if you wanted to but that there was nothing compulsory about it and that if you made it entirely voluntary you could do so if you saw proper? A: You told me you couldn’t force me to make it — you didn’t wait for me to make it you commended asking me questions — and the most I told was I just said "Yes" to you. Q: Didn’t you make this statement to me "Mr. Roane I want to tell all about how this thing occurred and then I want to have a fair trial — if you all will protect me and not allow me to be hurt" and after you made that statement I said "Gentlemen, I think from the statement the defendant has made there is enough to convict him and I beg that no violence will interfere. A: You got up and made a big talk. Q: There was no demonstration to hurt you was there? A: There were lots of them here that wanted to. Q: Did they attempt to? A: You had a big crowd around me running and dragging me to jail. Q: You run too didn’t you? A: Yes sir I did. Q: There wasn’t anybody in all that trying to hurt you were there? A: They didn’t but plenty was trying to.
A: Yes sir when I come out the court house the tops of the houses were covered and they were hollering "they have got him tied with a rope." Q: Didn’t I state to you that nobody had a right to make you make a statement and that it must be voluntary if made at all and that if you made any statement we wanted the truth and nothing but the truth? A: I don’t remember you saying it that way. You asked me if I wanted to make a statement and you said you had no right to make me make one. Q: Didn’t I tell you it would have to be voluntary? A: I don’t remember that. Q: And that nobody had a right to make you tell it? A: I don’t remember that. Q: You did tell on that occasion what purported to be how the thing occurred? A: I told you all the tale but I didn’t tell the straight thing. Q: You told that you held the light for the darkey to do the shooting? A: I held the light for them to go to bed but not for him to do the shooting. Q: Didn’t you say in the statement you made before the Coroners jury that you held the light for the darkey to do the shooting? A: Yes sir I told you that too. Q: You were not sworn before the Coroners jury were you? A: No sir I don’t think I was.
Q: You can read and write can’t you? A: Yes sir. Q: You are not a profound scholar? A: No sir. Q: Do you know who Mrs Cordie Mathis is? A: Yes sir my wife. Q: Look at that and see if that is your handwriting? (Hands witness paper) A: No sir I never wrote that. Q: Do you know anything about it? A: No sir. Q: Is that your signature there? A: No sir I never wrote it. Q: You might have dreamed it? No answer. Q: Did you get anybody to write this for you? A: No sir. Q: Do you know Shell Vines? A: Yes sir I have seen him — Where did that come from? Q: Didn’t you write that in jail and send it out to Shell Vines in an envelope addressed to your wife? A: No sir. Q: Did you write this? (Hands witness paper) Mr. Shell Vines: — I will write you this statement, I want you to tell that I come to Kin’s Sunday morning, and that I told you and Kin that Orlandus Lester had killed Hugh and John Montgomery and burned them and that I never had anything to do with it; that I was holding the lamp for them to go to bed, and I got into a fuss with Hugh about my pistol and the negro jumped in the door and shot them and that I told you all that the negro had slipped around my house trying to kill them unbeknowing to me, but he failed. I went in the yard and the negro made a signal to me but I thought he said shoot and I thought it was somebody trying to get to kill me and I shot at him and he then let himself be known and told his name. I told him he should not do it for they were just doing their duty as officers and made him go after some wood for me. I told you all that I was afraid they would put me in jail and I thought I would dodge until Court so if they put me in jail I wouldn’t have to stay long. Tell that I never made any secret of it at all. That I said I would tell it if I was called. Tell that I showed you some pistols and you asked me what I was going to do with them. I told you that I am to give John Montgomerys pistol to his people and I aimed to keep the other two. I am going to have you and Kin summonsed to swear this for me. This was the first statement I made and if you all swear it they will have to take it. I am going to swear that Orlandus slipped off and got a gun and came back and tried to get to kill the men unbeknowing to me but failed. That some of us kept in his way and that I went out after some wood and he said "shoo" for me to come to him and I thought he said shoot and I shot at him thinking it was somebody aiming to kill me. He let hisself be known and told his name. I told him he should not do it and made him go after some wood and chop it up and I went in the house and in a few minutes the men went in to lay down and I carried the lamp in for them to see to go to bed and after they pulled their clothes off I saw my pistol and I told Hugh Montgomery he had told me a damn’d lie about my pistol and that I was going to have it and he said to me God damn you we will take you to Oxford tonight. The negro heard this and ran and shot them both before I knew he was in the house and we all left then and went to your Pa’s and me and your Pa and the negro went back up there. There is not any use for me to tell you anything else that I am going to swear for you was not there. If you can swear the same that I have right and not get yourself in trouble I can come clear but I don’t want you to tell anything to hurt yourself to save me. Don’t let anybody know that I am going to try to beat it and that Lester is going to take it all on himself. If you all will do that I will come clear. The negro will tell he did it all and Cordie will tell the same and they won’t have any witness against me. I am working the thing a damn sight finer that they think for. My lawyer says that this will clear me. I have never been sworn yet. Don’t let anybody know anything about this. I want to surprise them" Your friend, Will Mathis, Oxford, Mi Q: That is about the same statement you are making here today ain’t it? A: I didn’t write that. Q: Didn’t you instruct somebody else to write it for you? A: No sir. Q: You have these parties summonsed here? A: I haven’t had Kin summonsed. Q: You had Shell Vines summonsed? A: Yes sir. Q: What for? A: To prove by him that I told him about them men about them being killed there and who done it — I told him that on Sunday morning but he denied it here today — I told him I wanted him to swear that I stayed there that night. Q: That was a lie wasn’t it? If they had sworn that it would have been false? A: Yes sir. Q: Yet you wanted them to do it? A: Yes sir I told them I wanted to prove myself away from home and they told me they wouldn’t swear no lies for me. Q: You wanted to prove yourself away from a place where somebody else was committing a crime even if you didn’t have anything to do with it? A: Yes sir. Q: You were willing to have your house and things burnt up to hide a crime that somebody else committed? A: Yes sir.. My father in law was into it and I couldn’t save him. Q: How was he into it? A: The negro stated that he sent him there and that he give him the shells and told me to kill them and he wanted me to do it and I told him he should not do it that they were just doing their duty as officers. Q: He said Mr. Owens wanted him to kill them and sent you word to not let them get away didn’t he? A: Yes sir. Q: He sent some buck shot shells didn’t he by Lester? A: Yes sir. And I told him it didn’t matter a damn what Mr. Owens said I knowed my business better than he did. Q: You selected Shell Vines and Kin because you believed their testimony would be taken for you? A: I knew they had got me in a bad thing and I wanted to get out the best way I could. Q: Shell Vines didn’t get you into it did he? A: No and he didn’t help me out either. Q: Ain’t you doing the same thing now — trying to get out? A: I want to get out but I ain’t doing it by telling lies. Q: You have told several tales about it? A: Not since I have been on the stand this time — this is the first time I have been sworn. Q: Do you tell the jury that you wouldn’t swear a falsehood to get yourself out of this trouble? A: No sir — I tell them I am not doing it. Q: You do tell them you tried to get somebody else to do it? A: Yes sir. Q: You say you didn’t write that? A: No sir. Q: It sounds mighty like you don’t it? A: I didn’t write it. Q: Isn’t that your signature? A: That is my name but I didn’t write it. Q: Do you think now that you are a damn sight smarter than they thought you were? A: No sir. Q: Mr. Bennett was in jail with you wasn’t he? A: Yes sir but he stayed with Jackson and Owens he didn’t come in and stay with me — they haven’t none of them taken up with me in there — they have been in with the other crowd in there — he stayed with me half a day. Q: You know Bennett? A: Yes sir. Q: Ain’t he the same Bennett you gave a letter to smuggle out to your wife? A: I don’t believe Bennett will testify that I ever gave him a letter. Q: What do you say about it? A: I said I didn’t do it. Q: Didn’t you write to your wife that one Parks, a federal prisoner, had told you that you could get saws in Memphis for twenty cents apiece and that you could get a dozen for $2.00 and that it would take a dozen to saw out of the jail and that Parks had agreed to go to Memphis and get the saws for you to saw out of jail? A: No sir. "Dear Cordie: — It is with a sad heart and a tear in my eye I write these few lines. It is you and Cleveland (That is your baby’s name?) A: Baxter Cleveland. Q: "It is to you and Cleveland that is troubling me — I think how happy we have been together and how sweet Cleveland was to me and how I have to be taken from you and I just don’t know what will become of you and him. If I could just get out I think maybe we could live together again. I don’t think Aunt Bet — (You have an Aunt Bet?) A: Bill Jacksons wifes mother is an Aunt to my wife. Q: You call her Aunt Bet? A: Yes sir. Q: "I don’t think Aunt Bet and others can get you afraid to live with me — I wish I could see them — I would make them remember the last time they saw me and it could be the last time they would want to see me. I think people think I was mean to you and that you didn’t care anything for me. Q: How do you spell care? A: I don’t know — Do you want me to spell it I would spell it "ker — would you spell it "ker or cer". Q: "Cordie — there is a man in jail by the name of Parks - he is from the Mississippi bottom he says if I will get some one to go with him to Memphis he will get some saws that I can get out of here with — the saws I can get out of here with if they are steel hack saws — 10 or 12 inches long made for sawing iron — I never told him that I could get anyone to go with him — I told him I didn’t know who would do — he says he is going to get them and bring them to me if I can get some one to go with him and bring them back they cost 20 cents a piece. — Q: Was Parks from the Mississippi bottom? A: They say he was. Q: How do you spell cents? A: Sents I would spell it. Q: "He says it will take 12 of them to saw out — by talking 12 he says I can get them for $2.00. I have got 2 of my pictures for you and Cleveland and if you don’t get someone to get the saws — if you can’t get some one to buy the saws get George to buy a – Q: You had pictures taken? A: A fellow come there and taken them while I was in jail. Q: He agreed to give you two? A: Yes sir.
Q: You have a brother in law — George Mask? A: Yes sir, but me and him don’t get along. Q: "If you don’t get some one to get the saws get George to buy four half inch drills and two files and a brace and an inch auger and coal chisel and hammer - I can get out of here if I can get them — and send my pistol with them and you come for it will take a good while to get out that way but I can get out. Your best lover" Q: You wrote that didn’t you? A: No sir — — I want to know where you got that. Q: "I think if you will see Jim Kimball and tell him about the saws and the name of the saws and tell him to write to Neut to send the saws to him and he can fetch them to me — If I could have told Walker I think he would have went out and got them for me — Cordie send my pistol to me anyhow if you can’t send anything else and send me a pint of whisky with the pistol if I have to fight my way out I want to be half drunk and nothing wouldn’t excite me" Will, you said all that didn’t you? A: No sir. Q: It sounds mighty like you don’t it? A: I don’t know that it does. Q: You don’t get excited when you are half drunk do you? A: I don’t get excited no time — unless it is something like they had me that day. Q: "Be sure and get 44 catridges" What size is the pistol your wife has of yours? A: I ain’t got none. Q: What size is the one you had? A: Forty one. Q: "Be sure and get 44 catridges for pistol and 32 winchester catridges for Raglands pistol" — He is the jailor? Your purpose was to kill him and get his pistol wasn’t it? A: He didn’t bring his pistol in the jail. Q: You have been watching him then to see whether you could knock him in the head and get away? A: No sir. Q: Look at that hand writing now and see if that ain’t your hand writing honest injun"? A: No sir it is not. Q: It tells a good deal about folks and their names that you know about — Who is Walker? A: I don’t know I didn’t write that. I reckon there are more folks in jail that knows my folks beside me. Q: Have you got any objection to writing a little for us? A: I say I didn’t write that. Q: Have you any objections to writing a little for us at our dictation? A: I don’t have to write to make you believe what I said do I? You prove I wrote that. Q: I want to prove it by you? A: You can’t do that I didn’t write it. Q: Do you object to writing some for us? A: I ain’t going to write — if you can’t take my word — of course if I want to I could turn here and write a running hand and change my hand anyway.
A: I want to tell the jury that there are more men in jail beside me charged with this same thing and they have been in cells together and they found out I was going to tell the straight thing about it and they have gone together — the other day I told Vick Richmond to tell my wife to come down to the jail and Mr. Owens told George not to tell her come down there that he didn’t think she ought to see me and they are all against me. Q: Have you any reason to suspect that anyone else wrote those letters to get you in trouble? A: I never thought about such a thing until now but I believe Jackson and Bennett is the ones that done it. Q: You say you didn’t give Bennett a letter to bring out to your wife? A: No sir and Bennett won’t testify to such a thing either I will bet my life on it. Defendant asks that he be permitted to write at the dictation of Counsel for the State if they now desire. By the Court: -- I will allow that. A: What must I write?
A: I have now wrote enough for you now to compare the hand writing. Q: Well — sign your name? A: W.E. Mathis. Q: Write Will Mathis. (Written)
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